toad.social

JdeBP<a href="https://mastodon.social/@mcc" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@mcc</a> <a href="https://hachyderm.io/@dalias" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@dalias</a> <a href="https://mastodon.social/@whitequark" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@whitequark</a> <a href="https://tech.lgbt/@becomethewaifu" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@becomethewaifu</a> It didn't replace van Smoorenberg init+rc. It replaced Upstart. The existence of Upstart is the part of history that many people forget or gloss over.van Smoorenberg init+rc always was a straw man. The Debian committee included it, but everyone acknowledged at the time that the main contenders were systemd, Upstart, and OpenRC.<a href="https://tty0.social/tags/systemd" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#systemd</a> <a href="https://tty0.social/tags/Upstart" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#Upstart</a>

Kevin Karhan :verified:<a href="https://social.restless.systems/@CursedSilicon" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@CursedSilicon</a> <a href="https://fedi.catto.garden/users/gettie" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@gettie</a> mostly because <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/systemD" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#systemD</a> (and it's competitiors) took all the right lessions:<ul><li>Start less</li><li>Start more in parallel</li><li>Resolve dependencies to avoid waiting times</li></ul>And basically everyone (<a href="https://infosec.space/tags/OpenRC" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#OpenRC</a>, <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/Upstart" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#Upstart</a>, etc. Even <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/LaunchD" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#LaunchD</a> [the <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/init" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#init</a> for <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/macOS" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#macOS</a> that is literally the SystemD but before SystemD and by Apple] and <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/SMF" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#SMF</a> [<a href="https://infosec.space/tags/Sun" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#Sun</a>'s SystemD for <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/Solaris" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#Solaris</a>] did that to allow for boot times in secinds, not minutes…<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo&t=12m17s" rel="nofollow noopener" translate="no" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo&t=12m17s</a>

JdeBP<a href="https://hachyderm.io/@BoydStephenSmithJr" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@BoydStephenSmithJr</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/@dvandal" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@dvandal</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/@david_chisnall" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@david_chisnall</a> <a href="https://izutsumi.eu/@strlcat" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@strlcat</a> This reasoning is based upon a fallacious dichotomy. In the real history, Upstart existed and had a strong competing maintainership, to the level that the <a href="https://tty0.social/tags/Debian" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#Debian</a> TC itself was nearly split down the middle on <a href="https://tty0.social/tags/RedHat" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#RedHat</a>/#Canonical lines, and the choice was *never* between van Smoorenburg init+rc and systemd.It was between <a href="https://tty0.social/tags/Upstart" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#Upstart</a> and <a href="https://tty0.social/tags/systemd" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#systemd</a>, the latter indeed being a reaction to the former, with <a href="https://tty0.social/tags/OpenRC" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#OpenRC</a> as a late entrant.

Kevin Karhan :verified:<a href="https://mstdn.social/@fabiscafe" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@fabiscafe</a> <a href="https://fosstodon.org/@okapi" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@okapi</a> OFC <a href="https://mastodon.bsd.cafe/@chesheer" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@chesheer</a> 's <a href="https://mastodon.bsd.cafe/@chesheer/114665737941231945" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">criticism</a> is understandable on <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/FreeBSD" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#FreeBSD</a> given that <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/SystemD" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#SystemD</a> is inherenty focussed and intertwined with <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/Linux" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#Linux</a> (just as it's Inspiration, <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/LaunchD" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#LaunchD</a>, is intertwined with <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/macOS" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#macOS</a>'s Darwin/NeXTstep kernel).<ul><li>The problem is after some hefty "init wars" with like <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/Upstart" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#Upstart</a> and others SystemD became the de-facto standard, and the "(statistical) rounding errors" of <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/BSD" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#BSD</a> users got sidelined, in part because BSDs looked at that mess and went like "Nyet, SysVinit is fine!" and continued their fiddling around...</li></ul>And sadly there's nothing they (or anyone else) could've done unless they had multiplied suddenly and being able to keepcthe old tech stack maintainable.<ul><li>Similarly <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/Xorg" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#Xorg</a> is dying and there are already GPUs that only support <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/Wayland" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#Wayland</a> and <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/X11" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#X11</a> apps get run using <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/XWayland" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#XWayland</a>. </li></ul>OFC I wish for more diversity in solutions, but <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/Linux" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#Linux</a> being <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/streamlined" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#streamlined</a> is what makes <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/portability" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#portability</a> across distros easier and boosted adoption as well as providing massive gains in solutions like <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/DXVK" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#DXVK</a>, <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/Proton" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#Proton</a> and <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/Wine" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#Wine</a> in general.<ul><li>And TBH most "<a href="https://infosec.space/tags/TechIlliterates" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#TechIlliterates</a>" aka. "<a href="https://infosec.space/tags/Normies" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#Normies</a>" frankly don't give a shit what OS they use. All it needs to do is serve them their eMails and allow them to 'consoom themselbes happy' as in watching YouTube, Play games, etc.</li></ul>

JdeBP<a href="https://wandering.shop/@cstross" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@cstross</a> I enjoyed how spot-on you accidentally were. (-:Interestingly, people still argue today (as you've probably seen in these threads) as if it were van Smoorenburg rc that was the other choice for Debian et al. back in 2014; which was in reality either Upstart or OpenRC. It's a very persistent erroneous dichotomy.<a href="https://tty0.social/tags/systemd" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#systemd</a> <a href="https://tty0.social/tags/Upstart" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#Upstart</a> <a href="https://tty0.social/tags/OpenRC" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#OpenRC</a>

JdeBP<a href="https://wandering.shop/@cstross" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@cstross</a> Right more than you know in one respect; but wrong in another.<a href="https://tty0.social/tags/systemd" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#systemd</a> came from <a href="https://tty0.social/tags/RedHat" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#RedHat</a>, not Microsoft; and the upstart was not Linux but a software package from <a href="https://tty0.social/tags/Canonical" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#Canonical</a> that was literally named "Upstart". (There's a whole backstory about the copyright licence that Canonical initially granted.)Amusingly, Windows NT's Service Controller, its WININIT, and its Session Manager are three distinct things; not like systemd's architecture at all.<a href="https://tty0.social/tags/Upstart" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#Upstart</a>

Kevin Karhan :verified:<a href="https://infosec.exchange/@nuintari" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@nuintari</a> <a href="https://mastodon.bsd.cafe/@stefano" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@stefano</a> no, it's not inherently bad because if <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/SysVinit" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#SysVinit</a> and all the.otherbthings were fine, noone would've even considered adoping <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/systemd" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#systemd</a>. <a href="https://infosec.space/@kkarhan/112660144122509736" translate="no" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://infosec.space/@kkarhan/112660144122509736</a>Claiming "it's <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/RHEL" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#RHEL</a>'s fault" also goes way too short, cuz they - like <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/SUSE" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#SUSE</a> and <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/Canonical" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#Canonical</a> - do weird stuff all the time.<ul><li>Unlike say <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/snap" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#snap</a> vs. <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/flatpak" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#flatpak</a>, there's a reason we have systemd and no say <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/upstart" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#upstart</a> being adopted.</li></ul>OFC you can get non-systemd distros and for <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/embedded" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#embedded</a> applications, the tradeoff of "space" vs. "complexity reconfiguring" stuff does make even a classic init script sufficient (i.e. some <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/InternetOfShit" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#InternetOfShit</a> device that isn't expected to constantly switch WiFi networks doesn't need a config more complex than the config txt from <a href="https://infosec.space/tags/RaspberryPiOS" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#RaspberryPiOS</a>)...

BC Info BotThe Tyee: Love Forests? Meet the Authors of ‘Canopy of Titans’ <a href="https://thetyee.ca/Presents/2023/10/11/Meet-Authors-Canopy-Titans/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://thetyee.ca/Presents/2023/10/11/Meet-Authors-Canopy-Titans/</a> <a href="https://mastodon.roitsystems.ca/tags/bcnews" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#bcnews</a> <a href="https://mastodon.roitsystems.ca/tags/TheTyee" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#TheTyee</a> - via @tyee@mstdn.ca <a href="https://mastodon.roitsystems.ca/tags/CanopyofTitans" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#CanopyofTitans</a>:TheLifeandTimesoftheGreatNorthAmericanTemperateRainforest <a href="https://mastodon.roitsystems.ca/tags/northwesttemperaterainforest" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#northwesttemperaterainforest</a> <a href="https://mastodon.roitsystems.ca/tags/CarbonSequestration" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#CarbonSequestration</a> <a href="https://mastodon.roitsystems.ca/tags/MermaidTalesTofino" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#MermaidTalesTofino</a> <a href="https://mastodon.roitsystems.ca/tags/DominickDellaSala" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#DominickDellaSala</a> <a href="https://mastodon.roitsystems.ca/tags/old" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#old</a>-growthforests <a href="https://mastodon.roitsystems.ca/tags/ElizabethKolbert" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#ElizabethKolbert</a> <a href="https://mastodon.roitsystems.ca/tags/JessicaApplegate" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#JessicaApplegate</a> <a href="https://mastodon.roitsystems.ca/tags/J" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#J</a>.BooneKauffman <a href="https://mastodon.roitsystems.ca/tags/keystonespecies" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#keystonespecies</a> <a href="https://mastodon.roitsystems.ca/tags/PaulKoberstein" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#PaulKoberstein</a> <a href="https://mastodon.roitsystems.ca/tags/proforestation" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#proforestation</a> <a href="https://mastodon.roitsystems.ca/tags/Upstart" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#Upstart</a>&Crow <a href="https://mastodon.roitsystems.ca/tags/DavidGelles" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#DavidGelles</a>

Stonk Broker Live NewsBBBY, MULN, and UPST Are on the Nasdaq Securities Threshold List. Here's What That Means. <a href="https://www.thestreet.com/memestocks/other-memes/bbby-muln-upst-nasdaq-securities-threshold-list-what-that-means" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.thestreet.com/memestocks/other-memes/bbby-muln-upst-nasdaq-securities-threshold-list-what-that-means</a> <a href="https://aspiechattr.me/tags/BedBath" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#BedBath</a>&Beyond <a href="https://aspiechattr.me/tags/RegulationSHO" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#RegulationSHO</a> <a href="https://aspiechattr.me/tags/OtherMemes" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#OtherMemes</a> <a href="https://aspiechattr.me/tags/Upstart" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#Upstart</a> <a href="https://aspiechattr.me/tags/Mullen" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#Mullen</a>

Scott Williams 🐧<a href="https://tty0.social/@JdeBP" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@JdeBP</a> <a href="https://fosstodon.org/@RL_Dane" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@RL_Dane</a> <a href="https://oldbytes.space/@mos_8502" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@mos_8502</a> Indeed, it very much didn't. And it's very useful context for <a href="https://mastodon.online/tags/systemd" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#systemd</a>. Seeing systemd as a replacement for <a href="https://mastodon.online/tags/upstart" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#upstart</a>, which had already broadly replaced SysInitV, makes much more sense of the situation. It's not like upstart was any less "corporate" or anything (Canonical, Red Hat, Google). It's that in practice, it was really not good at tracking processes and often couldn't be relied on.

JdeBP<a href="https://mastodon.online/@vwbusguy" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@vwbusguy</a> <a href="https://fosstodon.org/@RL_Dane" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@RL_Dane</a> <a href="https://oldbytes.space/@mos_8502" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@mos_8502</a> There were such people, though. <a href="https://tty0.social/tags/upstart" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#upstart</a> was seen as the new event-driven way of the future, and there were people who promoted it as such. The Debian Technical Committee was almost evenly split, moreover.As I said in <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19966762" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19966762</a> , the event-driven notion didn't work out in practice.

Scott Williams 🐧<a href="https://tty0.social/@JdeBP" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@JdeBP</a> <a href="https://fosstodon.org/@RL_Dane" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@RL_Dane</a> <a href="https://oldbytes.space/@mos_8502" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@mos_8502</a> It's also important to ask why the outrage for <a href="https://mastodon.online/tags/systemd" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#systemd</a> but not <a href="https://mastodon.online/tags/upstart" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#upstart</a> that had already replaced SysInitV in many <a href="https://mastodon.online/tags/Linux" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#Linux</a> distros, yet I never hear anyone arguing that upstart was better than systemd in any way.<a href="https://upstart.ubuntu.com/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://upstart.ubuntu.com/</a>

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