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@Angelika Wienert Ich könnte sie auch hier und jetzt in einer Antwort posten mitsamt Alt-Texten.

Aber die Bilder enthalten beide Augenkontakt. Und ich habe hier von Hubzilla aus keinerlei Möglichkeit, dafür zu sorgen, daß die Bilder auf Mastodon ausgeblendet werden. Ich würde potentiell haufenweise Leute damit triggern.

Also versuche ich es mal so in der Hoffnung, daß Mastodon keine Linkvorschauen mit Bildern generiert.

Link zu Bild Nr. 1

Originaler Alt-Text:

Digital rendering from OSgrid, one of the biggest out of thousands of 3-D virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator. It shows Juno Rowland, a female avatar, standing at the end of a wooden pier with the ocean in the background. The avatar is designed to resemble a woman who is no older than in her 30s. She is slim underneath loose-fitting clothes. She has light to medium-light skin, brown eyes and black hair which is styled as a neck-long bob. She is wearing a black tank top with the logo of the 17th birthday of OSgrid on it, a straight, lower-thigh-length, light-to-medium-light-brown denim miniskirt, a pair of black flat ballet shoes and a golden necklace with the OSgrid logo. The OSgrid logo is made up from five identical parallelograms arranged in a circular, star-like pattern. It is also part of the birthday logo which is mostly two tones of yellowish orange. The writing on the birthday logo reads, from top to bottom, “OSgrid”, “The Open Source Metaverse” and “17th Birthday”. A more detailed description of the image, including explanations, can be found in the post itself. If you are on Mastodon, Misskey or one of their forks, you can find it by opening the summary and content warning which includes, “CW: long (22,270 characters, including 20,377 characters of image descriptions), eye contact”, and then following the actual post text. If you are on Pleroma, Akkoma, another Pleroma fork, Friendica, Hubzilla or (streams), the full description will follow right after the images.


Link zu Bild Nr. 2

Originaler Alt-Text:

Digital rendering from OSgrid, one of the biggest out of thousands of 3-D virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator. It shows Juno Rowland, a female avatar, standing at the end of a wooden pier with the ocean in the background. The avatar is designed to resemble a woman who is no older than in her 30s. She is slim underneath loose-fitting clothes. She has light to medium-light skin and black hair which is styled as a neck-long bob. She is wearing a black tank top, a straight, lower-thigh-length, light-to-medium-light-brown denim miniskirt, a pair of black flat ballet shoes and a golden necklace. She is looking at the cover of the Leonard Cohen album Recent Songs on a white easel. The cover is a painting of the musician's face. He is shown to be a middle-aged man with light skin, green eyes and black hair in a black shirt. A hummingbird is drawn hovering above his shoulder to the left. The background is medium blue. Cohen's name and the album title are written in the top corners. A more detailed description of the image, including explanations, can be found in the post itself. If you are on Mastodon, Misskey or one of their forks, you can find it by opening the summary and content warning which includes, “CW: long (22,270 characters, including 20,377 characters of image descriptions), eye contact”, and then following the actual post text. If you are on Pleroma, Akkoma, another Pleroma fork, Friendica, Hubzilla or (streams), the full description will follow right after the images.


Gemeinsame Langbeschreibung beider Bilder (ging in den Post direkt unter die Bilder):

Image descriptions


The medium and the basic setup


Both images in this post are digital renderings from inside a 3-D virtual world, using shaders, simplified real-time reflections and an artificial sun as a directed light source for illuminating the scenery and casting shadows, but without ray-tracing. It shows a digital avatar made to look like a fairly young woman. In the first image, she is standing at the end of a wooden pier. In the second image, she is standing next to a painted portrait of Leonard Cohen which he has used as an album cover.

The locations


The images were created in two different places in OSgrid, known as sims. Both are linked to the 17th anniversary of OSgrid which is celebrated from July 22th to July 28th, 2024.

OSgrid is a virtual world, a so-called "grid", based on a virtual-world engine named OpenSimulator. OpenSimulator, OpenSim in short, is a free, open-source, server-side re-implementation of the technology of Second Life. It is not affiliated with Linden Lab, the creators and owners of Second Life.

Second Life is a centralised, commercial 3-D virtual world launched in 2003. It experienced a big hype starting in 2007 which faded away in 2008. It still exists, it is constantly evolving, and it is celebrating its 21st anniversary this month.

In early 2007, Linden Lab laid open the source code of the official Second Life viewer, the client application needed to access Second Life. This revealed large parts of Second Life's technology and made not only the development of third-party viewers possible, but also the creation of a server application that can be used to create virtual worlds similar to Second Life. This server application was eventually named OpenSimulator, and the first test releases still came out in the first half of 2007.

Second Life, as well as the worlds based on OpenSimulator, are referred to as "grids" because they are split into square regions of 256 by 256 metres or roughly 280 by 280 yards. This roughly corresponds to a bit more than three by two major-league football pitches or soccer fields or a bit less than three by two American football fields.

While Second Life is a walled garden with only one publicly accessible grid that is connected to nothing else, OpenSimulator can be used by just about anyone to create and run their own grid. In 2008, a new feature called the Hypergrid was introduced that allows avatars registered on one grid to visit other grids. Thus, OpenSim is not only decentralised, but actually mostly federated. There are currently over 3,000 active grids, maybe over 4,000, and especially most of the larger public grids are connected to the Hypergrid.

Sims, in turn, are short for simulators which have to run in regions for any kind of content to be able to exist in them and for avatars to be able to enter them. In Second Life, one sim always covers one region. OpenSim has so-called varsims which can cover multiple regions arranged in a square without having borders between the regions. The upper limit imposed by the software is 32 by 32 or 1,024 regions, but anything significantly larger than 16 by 16 or 256 regions has been proven to be highly impractical.

OSgrid was the first public OpenSim grid. It was launched in July, 2007, as a proving ground for OpenSim's own development which it still is. Nonetheless, it was the first OpenSim grid to surpass Second Life in land area, and it currently is one out of two grids to have done so. Also, as early as 2007 already, OSgrid referred to OpenSim in general and then, by 2008, to itself as "the Open Source Metaverse". It has used this term for an actual virtual world 14 years earlier than Mark Zuckerberg. For about just as long, the word "metaverse" has been part of the standard vocabulary in the OpenSim community.

The avatar in both pictures


The avatar shown in the image is Juno Rowland. She is, in fact, a backup avatar for my female alt, short for alternate avatar, that goes by the same name and looks the same while being at home on another grid.

Juno is built to look like a young woman. OpenSim does not explicitly support different ethnicities, but the basic avatar-building components available in OpenSim are almost exclusively geared towards avatars looking white or Latin American and in the 30s at most. She is 1.74 metres or 5 feet 8 1/2 inches tall which is taller than the average real-life Western woman by about the length of an adult person's palm. She is fairly slim which is somewhat concealed by the loose fit of her clothes.

Juno's skin textures are light to medium-light. Highlights and partly also shades are part of the skin textures, but very subdued. Most shading on her is created by the shader built into the viewer.

She has brown eyes and black hair worn as a rather short bob that narrows downward from where her ears are and extends to a height halfway between her chin and her shoulders. Her bangs cover her forehead entirely. Strands of her bangs partly cover her eyebrows, and two of them extend down as far as her upper eyelids. On each side, a single thick lock extends forward and slightly inward. These locks occasionally cover parts of her lower cheeks.

Juno is wearing a loose-fitting black tank top with the official logo of the 17th grid birthday festivities on it. The logo stretches across about 90% of Juno's chest and from slightly higher than right below her breasts to slightly higher than the middle of the front of the shirt.

In the top left corner of the birthday logo, there is the OSgrid logo. It consists of five identical parallelograms. Each one of them resembles a rectangle which, when placed horizontally, has its short edges tilted to the right by 18 degrees. The long edges are longer than the short edges by about three quarters. These five parallelograms are arranged around a common centre at the same distance and at angles of 72 degrees from each other. There is always one pointed angle slipping under the long side of a neighbouring parallelogram. This way, the gap in the middle between the parallelograms is a five-point star. The outer short edge of each parallelogram is farther away from the centre than the parallel long edge of the neighbouring parallelogram by a bit over half the latter's width. The top right parallelogram is placed exactly vertically.

The whole logo has a light, yellowish orange tint. Size-wise, it takes up a bit more than 20% of the width and about 70% of the height of the entire birthday logo.

To the right of the OSgrid logo, there is the name of the grid, "OSgrid", written in all capitals in the same tint of orange as the OSgrid logo. The writing is about two thirds as tall as each parallelogram in the OSgrid logo is long. It starts to the right of the vertical top right parallelogram at roughly 80% of its width, and the top of the letters is slightly higher than the obtuse top right corner of the top right parallelogram. The typeface used is a heavy variant of the Futura typeface, a geometric sans-serif typeface known for fairly small lower-case characters and a lower-case "a" which is like a "d" with a shorter line, much like in hand-writing.

Right below, "The Open Source Metaverse" is written at a vertical distance that is roughly the same as the general thickness of the letters in the "OSgrid" writing. All four words start with capitals. The writing lines up with the "OSgrid" writing to the left. The typeface is the same as the one used for the "OSgrid" writing, only smaller by about 60%. It is small enough to not be easily readable in the image at the resolution at which the image was posted. The writing is tinted a light grey, resembling aluminium.

Most of the lower half is taken up by a horizontal rectangle, tinted a darker, slightly less saturated, slightly more brownish tone of orange. To the left, it lines up with the bottom pointy-angled corner of the bottom left parallelogram in the logo. To the right, it lines up with the end of the writing "The Open Source Metaverse". At the top, it almost touches the vertical line of the "p" in the same writing.

On this rectangle, "17th Birthday" is written in the same black as the rest of the tank top and the same typeface as the other two writings, but twice the height as the writing "The Open Source Metaverse". Vertically, this writing is slightly above the middle of the rectangle. Horizontally, it lines up with the other two writings on the left.

Below the tank top, Juno is wearing a straight, loose-fitting miniskirt which ends roughly the length of one of her hands above her knees. Its texture gives it a look like washed-out denim in various shades of slightly yellowish, medium-light-to-medium brown. Seams, pockets and the fly are all only part of the texture. The pocket on the front to the left from Juno's point of view is completely covered by the tank top, the pocket on the other side is mostly covered. The texture does not emulate any rear pockets.

Apart from the skirt, Juno's legs are bare. On her feet, she is wearing a pair of flat ballet shoes which mostly show a black texture, slightly lighter than the tank top, with a structure that resembles an unidentified fabric. The insides of the shoes are a medium-light, shaded tone of brown, suggesting some fabric or thin leather again. The soles are a medium-light, slightly reddish brown. They have very low heels.

Around her neck, Juno is wearing a necklace consisting what appears to be a single wire of solid gold of a similar thickness as the material used for clothes hangers plus an OSgrid logo made of gold as well. The logo is a bit over half as big as the one on her tank top. The eye through which the wire runs is attached near one of the outer obtuse-angled corners, so the logo is rotated to the left in comparison with the one on the tank top. Both the wire and the logo are glossy, the logo more than the wire, but the material appearance is textured onto both.

In both Second Life and OpenSim-based worlds, unlike most other 3-D virtual worlds, avatars are not only highly configurable in-world, but also highly modular. Everything on Juno is an attachment. Her body is an attachment, the head included. Her feet are a separate attachment; different feet for medium and high heels are available. The skin textures can be replaced, and standard skins can be worn on this body. The eye texture can be replaced, too. Eyelashes, fingernails and toenails are attachments, although the latter are fully concealed inside her shoes. Her hair is an attachment. The top, the skirt, each shoe and the necklace are separate attachments which makes it possible for her to wear all kinds of outfits. Her shape is configurable with over 80 parameters, and even that can be replaced with another one which is usually just as configurable.

Everything that Juno is made up from was made by users. Everything else, including the purpose-made texture on the tank top, was made directly for OpenSim.

The scenery in the first image


The first image was created on a sim called Tropicana Tuneage, a multi-purpose sim which is regularly used for events, but which is also Juno's home in OSgrid.

The scenery is limited to a wooden pier which Juno is standing on. It takes up the lower 45% of the image. Its water-side end would line up with the lower side of Juno's butt if she was shown from behind. The top surface of the pier is textured in a way that suggests wooden planks that run transversally across the pier. The wood is very slightly less yellowish tone of brown than Juno's skirt and varies greatly between light-medium, almost light, and medium. The sides of the pier are outside the borders of the image.

The pier leads to the southwest. The camera angle follows it almost exactly in parallel. It is oriented farther to the right by about one degree. It is also roughly at the height of Juno's waist.

Beyond the pier and behind Juno, there is nothing but blue sea with gentle waves on it. The tone of blue has a fairly low saturation, and some of the waves are partly almost medium-dark grey. The horizon is at almost precisely two thirds of the height of the image, roughly below Juno's breasts, which shows that the camera is tilted downward by a few degrees.

The sky is a very pale, greenish blue with a very faint gradient towards the horizon that suggests haze. To Juno's right, there are some thin clouds which increasingly blend in with the sky, the lower they are. A bit of cloud is above her head as well. There are no clouds to her left.

Juno in the first image


Juno is slightly left of centre, standing on her right foot while moving her left foot forward and turning it to the left. She is about to turn herself around. Her arms are on her sides, the left arm is moved a bit forward. Her hands are relaxed with both middle fingers bent inward a little more than the other fingers.

Juno's face is expressionless. Any expressions would require specific animations to be played, mostly manually which would be an extra effort. She is looking past a point slightly above the camera.

Her hair is fully covering her ears. The lock on the left of her face, the right for the on-looker, is in front of the lower parts of her cheek. So is the lock on the other side, but less so.

Lighting in the first image


The simulated time of day is late afternoon. The sun is quite low already in the west. This can be told by the shadows which Juno's legs cast on the wooden planks texture on the pier as well as some narrow highlights on her neck, her arms and her legs. The sun itself is not in the image.

Apart from the sun, there is medium grey ambient light that shines the same from everywhere and therefore doesn't create any shadows.

Save for being cropped, the image is unedited and unprocessed.

The scenery in the second image


The second image was created in a different place on the same grid named OSG17B2. The name refers to OSgrid's 17th birthday, OSG17B in short. It is the second one of four numbered exhibition sims created for the birthday, two of which were opened to the public while the other two remain unused.

In the second image, Juno is inside a building used as a gallery of music album covers.

Most of the right-hand 60% of the image are taken up by an art easel. It is about one and two thirds times as high as Juno is tall while appearing smaller due to the perspective. It is rotated to the right from the camera being directly aimed at its front by about 25 degrees.

The easel is a fairly stable and elaborate construction which looks like it is adjustable for various canvas sizes. Below where the canvas would be put, there is a shelf for painting utensils. The easel is mostly white with no texture on it. The exceptions are eleven slotted screw heads and a handle roughly shaped like a six-point star with which the easel can be adjusted to different canvas sizes. They have metal-like, partly light grey, partly light yellowish or brownish textures with medium-light orange spots hinting at corrosion. These textures include highlights and shading. The parts themselves are not shiny. Of the screw heads, only five are unobscured. One is holding the adjustment handle in place. Three are holding the almost vertical part of the easel together, one close to the top, two near the bottom. The fifth one connects the right-hand rear support to the foot.

The easel is adjusted for something way bigger than what it is carrying. It's the cover of the album Recent Songs by the singer-songwriter Leonard Cohen. It was released in 1979 as his sixth studio album, and it is not known for high-charting single releases. The cover is about half as high as Juno is tall. Again, due to the perspective, it appears to be smaller. Its aspect ratio is very slightly warped, it is a little wider than it is high.

The album cover is based on a frontal facial portrait painting of Cohen by Dianne Lawrence. It shows him as a middle-aged, light-skinned man with green eyes and black, medium-short hair which he wears in a somewhat asymmetrical hairdo that is slightly fuller on his left, the on-looker's right, than on the other side. The top of his hair is cut off by the top edge of the canvas. At the bottom, the portrait ends at Cohen's shoulders. He is wearing a black shirt which lacks too many details to be identifiable any further.

The background behind him is a solid, slightly pale medium blue with a minimal hint of green.

Above his right shoulder, his left shoulder from the on-looker's point of view, there is a drawing of a hummingbird which is only black and background blue and about as long from beak to tail feathers as Cohen's mouth is wide. The bird seems to be hovering above his shoulder with no intention to touch down. Its beak is oriented to the right for the on-looker and tilted slightly downward to between Cohen's shoulder and the collar of his shirt.

Between the top left corner and Cohen's hair, his name is written, "Leonard Cohen". Likewise, between his hair and the top right corner, the title of the album is written, "Recent Songs". Both are in black, fairly small, in an unidentified, very heavy geometric sans-serif typeface and in all-caps.

The narrow right-hand side of the box that has the portrait on its front has a medium-dark wood texture, slightly reddish, slightly greyish, with the grain perpendicular to the long edges.

The wall behind the easel is mostly white with a black circular pattern on it. It consists of 39 concentric circles whose thickness increase from the outermost to the innermost circle. Instead of a 40th circle, there is a dot in the centre which is a little bigger than the thickness of the innermost circle. The texture itself is a bit over one and a half times as high as Juno is tall and twice as wide as it is high. Thus, it has ample of white space on both sides whereas the outermost 16 circles are more or less cut at the top and the bottom. Two of these patterns are within the border of the image above one another. The upper one is cut off by the upper edge of the image in such a way that only the two innermost circles are complete.

The wall makes up a bit less than the upper two thirds of the background of the image. Apart from Juno and the easel, everything below is ground. The edge between the wall and the floor shows that the camera is rotated from being perpendicular to the wall by some five degrees to the left. Thus, the easel is rotated to the right by about 20 degrees from being parallel to the wall. Besides, the camera is as high above the ground as Juno's waist and tilted downward only very minimally.

The ground is a medium orange in the bottom left corner of the image. It gets a little darker and more purplish towards the opposite corner where it meets the wall.

Juno in the second image


Juno is on the left-hand side of the image. standing in front of the easel, a little left of its centre, and facing it. The image shows her to the left of the easel and from the rear right. Her head is tilted downward as if she was looking at the album cover. Her face is entirely on the far side of her head. The bottom of her hair is shifted to the back and to the left because she is actually in motion. Her right ear is still fully concealed under hair.

Her arms are relaxed on both sides. She is resting her weight on her right leg while having lifted up the heel of her left foot.

The right strap of her tank top is hovering above her right shoulder at a distance of a little more than the thickness of one of her fingers. The background appears through the gap.

Lighting in the second image


The only light available in the image are the omnipresent medium grey ambient light and several white point light on the ceiling beyond the edges of the image, only one of which is on this side of the wall. The sun is fixed straight above the scene, but the roof of the building which is outside the image is in its way. Since shadows are on in this picture, the roof keeps the sunlight out. Point light sources like those on the ceiling don't cast shadows, so they add to the ambient light, but they only illuminate avatars, objects and the like from one side. The highlights on her legs hint at the position of the sole point light on this side of the wall, namely behind and slightly to the left of Juno.

Save for being cropped, the image is unedited and unprocessed.


#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #Bildbeschreibung #Bildbeschreibungen #BildbeschreibungenMeta #CWBildbeschreibungenMeta
streams.elsmussols.netJupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet - jupiter_rowland@streams.elsmussols.net
Replied in thread
@Angelika Wienert Wenn du Bildbeschreibungen so kritisch betrachtest, hätte ich gern deine ehrliche Meinung zu meinem letzten Bilderpost, der jetzt auch schon wieder fast ein Jahr her sein dürfte. Würdest du sagen, die Bilder sind hinreichend detailliert und akkurat beschrieben, oder fehlt dir da etwas?

Vorab: Das ist kein Mastodon-Tröt, aber trotzdem ein Post im Fediverse, der auch nach Mastodon gekommen ist. Und er ist sehr lang.

Er enthält zwei Bilder, die ich jeweils zweimal beschrieben habe: einmal "kurz" im Alt-Text, einmal sehr viel länger und detaillierter mit Text-Transkripten im Post selbst inklusive einer gemeinsamen Präambel für beide Beschreibungen, die auch alle nötigen Erklärungen enthält.

Das Original findest du hier auf (streams). Da wirst du erst die Zusammenfassung nebst Inhaltswarnung öffnen müssen, dann nach unten scrollen bzw. den Post ausklappen, dann ein Spoiler-Tag mit zusätzlicher Inhaltswarnung öffnen, um die Bilder sehen zu können.

Wenn du an einem Computer bist, werden die Alt-Texte ganz klassisch angezeigt, wenn du den Mauscursor auf eins der Bilder schiebst. Was Smartphones oder Tablets angeht, bin ich überfragt.

Alternativ kannst du dir den Post ansehen auf Mastodons Weboberfläche, indem du auf mastodon.social nach dem Hashtag #⁠OSG17B suchst. Da ist es dann der dritte Post von unten.

Du solltest sehr viel Zeit mitbringen. Der Alt-Text des ersten Bildes ist 1.500 Zeichen lang, der des zweiten Bildes 1.499, und die langen Beschreibungen messen insgesamt über 20.000 Zeichen.

Ich arbeite seit Ende letzten Jahres immer mal wieder an den Bildbeschreibungen für eine Reihe von Portraitbildern. Ich habe mich auch schon sehr, sehr umfassend über Bildbeschreibungen informiert und sehr gute Gründe für so lange Bildbeschreibungen. Trotzdem hätte ich gern die eine oder andere Meinung zu meinen Bildbeschreibungen. Falls ich irgendwelche Fehler gemacht habe oder irgendwo nachlässig war, will ich das nicht wiederholen.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #Bildbeschreibung #Bildbeschreibungen #BildbeschreibungenMeta #CWBildbeschreibungenMeta
streams.elsmussols.netHappy 17th birthday, OSgrid!OSgrid is probably the oldest 3-D virtual world based on free and open-source software (OpenSimulator) and run by community members. It's definitely the oldest 3-D virtual world that's federated with other virtual worlds. And it is celebrating its 17th anniversary this week, all week, up until...
Replied in thread
@Kevin Russell
I frequently put both a screenshot and url in alt text, by FAR the most information-rich and honest way to provide some potentially missing information.

Never provide any information exclusively in alt-text!

Not everyone can access alt-text. Accessing alt-text requires either at least one properly working hand (which not everyone has) or a screen reader (which sighted people don't have).

Those who don't have either will not be able to get any information that's only available in the alt-text and nowhere else.

See also the following pages in my early-work-in-progress wiki about image descriptions and alt-text in the Fediverse:

Also (I don't have a page on that yet), don't add URLs to alt-text. Alt-text is always plain text. No webpage, no Fediverse software will
turn an URL in alt-text into a functional, clickable link, no browser or Fediverse app will, and no screen reader will.

All this belongs into the post itself.

CC: @Miss Gayle @Logan 5 and 999 others

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta
hub.netzgemeinde.euJupiter Rowland - jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu
Replied in thread
@Alex Feinman @Nora Reed Alt-text must never include explanations! Explanations must always go into the post itself!

Not everyone can access alt-text. Sighted people need a mouse/trackball/touchpad/trackpoint or a touch screen to access alt-text. And in order to operate that, they need at least one working hand. But not everyone has working hands. Just like not everyone can see, which is why you describe your images in the first place, right?

For those who can't access alt-text, any information only available in alt-text and neither in the post text nor in the image itself is inaccessible and lost. They can't open it, they can't read it.

Here are three relevant pages in my (very early WIP) wiki about image descriptions and alt-text:

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #Disability #A11y #Accessibility
hub.netzgemeinde.euJupiter Rowland - jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu
Replied in thread
@quadrivial 💛🇺🇦🇨🇦🇲🇽 Even if that's the case, keep in mind that blind or visually-impaired people rely on the self-same AI databases that scrape alt-texts in the Fediverse to have images with no alt-text described to them.

If you refuse to describe your images in alt-texts to deprive AI scrapers of data, you hurt blind/visually-impaired people twice over.

#AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #AI
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@Hannah Steenbock You can't change it. This was intentionally changed and hard-coded into Mastodon 4.4 by the Mastodon devs. You have to click the black "Alt" badge in the bottom right corner of the image now to get the alt-text.

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Mastodon4.4 #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #AltTextMissing
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@Bob Tregilus You could work around this by writing the alt-text in an external text editor and then copy-pasting it over into the alt-text field. If you need to see both the editor and the image, you could resize the editor so that it doesn't cover the images and set it to always be on top. An extra perk is that you can save your alt-text as a text file and re-use it later.

I myself always write my image descriptions in an external editor.

#AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@Icarosity It's similar for me, only that I always put a gigantic effort into describing my own images twice, once not exactly briefly in the alt-text and once with even more details in the post itself. Sometimes I find an interesting motive, but when I start thinking about how to describe it, I don't even render an image because it isn't worth doing so if I can't post it.

I haven't posted a new image in almost a year. In fact, I've got a series of fairly simple images for which I've started writing the descriptions late last year, and I'm still not done. So much about "it only takes a few seconds".

Before someone suggests I could use Altbot: I'm not even sure if it'll work with Hubzilla posts. And besides, no AI on this planet is fit for the task of properly, appropriately and accurately describing the kind of images that I post.

@Baranduin And then there's me who has managed to describe one image in a bit over ten thousand words last year. Good thing I have a post character limit of over 16.7 million. And I actually limited myself this time: I did not describe images within my image in detail, in stark contrast to about two years ago when I described a barely visible image in an image in well over 4,000 characters of its own, and that wasn't the only image within that image that I described.

CC: @Logan 5 and 999 others

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta
Replied in thread
@Logan 5 and 999 others First of all: You must never put line breaks into alt-text. Ever. (https://www.tpgi.com/short-note-on-coding-alt-text/, https://joinfediverse.wiki/Draft:Captions#Line_breaks)

Besides, that will certainly not be the day that I'll post my first image after more than a year.

It's tedious enough to properly describe my original images at the necessary level of detail, and one image takes me many hours to describe, sometimes up to two full days, morning to evening. Not joking here. I certainly won't put extra effort into turning at least the 900 characters of "short" description that go into the alt-text into a poem. And I definitely will not also turn the additional 20,000, 40,000, 60,000 characters of long description that go into the post into a poem as well. (And yes, I can post 60,000+ characters in one go, and I have done so in the past. My character limit is 16,777,215.)

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta
TPGi · Short note on coding alt text - TPGiThe other day, in relation to a github comment, I was asked by my friend Mike[tm]Smith “Can alt have line breaks in it or does that do weird things to...
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@Logan 5 and 999 others The altbot posts its image description in a reply to wherever you've mentioned it. The image description will be in a wholly separate message than the image.

The altbot cannot automatically edit your image post and insert its image description into the alt-text field. You have to copy the image description generated by the altbot, edit your image post and paste the image description into the alt-text field manually.

#AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #AltBot
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
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@Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦 This would require three things, however.

One, any Fediverse server software would have to be capable of altering comments from any Fediverse software. Don't think that posts, comments etc. aren't formatted the same everywhere. They aren't.

For example, Mastodon would have to know and understand that it would have to remove @⁠osma@mas.to from Misskey, Sharkey, CherryPick, Iceshrimp etc. notes, @[url⁠=https://mas.to/users/osma]Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦[/url] from Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte comments and an invisible shadow mention from (streams) and Forte comments, too.

Two, anyone in the Fediverse would have to always have full and unlimited permission to alter everyone else's content without their consent. This is particularly crucial in the cases of Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte with their highly advanced and fine-grained permissions systems that don't even cover having your content altered by others.

Three, edits on any Fediverse software must always be federated to absolutely everywhere and anywhere in the Fediverse, no exceptions, regardless of software. AFAIK, there is Fediverse server software that still doesn't understand edits at all, and that will either ignore received edits or understand them as and treat them like new posts.

It's very similar to the wish for being able to edit alt-texts into other people's posts which seems to pretty much always come from people who think that the Fediverse is only Mastodon, or at least that everything in the Fediverse is like Mastodon plus one or two extra features.

And let's be honest: If you give especially Mastodon users the ability to alter other people's posts, they will want to alter other people's posts in lots of other ways. Like, delete summaries on Friendica/Hubzilla/(streams)/Forte posts because they're "abuse of the CW field" from a "Fediverse = Mastodon" point of view. Remove all hashtags but four, regardless of these hashtags triggering the automated, individual, reader-side content warnings that have existed in the Friendica family since five and a half years before Mastodon was first published. Cutting "long posts" (= everything over 500 characters) down to a maximum of 500 characters because "the Fediverse was invented by Eugen Rochko for only microblogging". Even removing any and all mentions of the Fediverse beyond Mastodon. Removing text formatting because "it has no place in a Twitter alternative". Or removing all contents from posts or comments altogether.

Of course, the very same Mastodon users will completely flip their shit if a Friendica user comes and copies their 20-post threads into one long post, deletes the contents of the 19 follow-ups afterwards and replaces the content warning in the abstract field (= their CW field) with an actual abstract, just to fit it into a Fediverse culture that's way older than Mastodon itself.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #NotOnlyMastodon #FediverseIsNotMastodon #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse #Misskey #Sharkey #CherryPick #Iceshrimp #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #Mention #Mentions #MentionTag #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #Permission #Permissions
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
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@Erik L. Midtsveen 🏳️‍⚧️🇳🇴 If you really want some criticism:

Alt-text really should not contain line breaks, nor should it contain the quotations marks on your keyboard. Neither are standard alt-text elements. And just because Mastodon renders them with no problems, doesn't mean everything does. Not even in the Fediverse.

As for line breaks: Some screen readers will take each new line for a whole new alt-text and therefore a whole new image. And they will read multi-line alt-texts as alt-texts of multiple images, e.g. starting each line with, "Graphic." This has been pointed out by Steve Faulkner in 2015.

As for quotation marks: For one, just like line breaks, they're actually completely useless for the actual target audience of alt-text, namely blind or visually-impaired people. Screen readers don't read out quotation marks. I mean, how should they?

But if a frontend doesn't render quotation marks properly, screen readers will read out gobbledygook where there's a quotation mark because they will see gobbledygook in the place of that quotation mark, because the frontend renders quotation marks as gobbledygook.

For example, there's Hubzilla which is what I'm posting from right now, so it's very much part of the Fediverse. Hubzilla renders quotation marks in alt-text as their HTML entities, namely &⁠quot;. A screen reader will read out every single quotation mark as, "And quot."

And then there are two descendants of Hubzilla made by Hubzilla's own creator, (streams) and Forte. The same quotation marks that you have on whatever keyboard you use, they use as alt-text delimiters. When the first quotation mark comes, they think it's the end of the alt-text, and they stop parsing and rendering the alt-text. For them, your alt-text ends right after, "Panel 1:"

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta
TPGi · Short note on coding alt text - TPGiThe other day, in relation to a github comment, I was asked by my friend Mike[tm]Smith “Can alt have line breaks in it or does that do weird things to...
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@Bob Tregilus Only that "my best" has actually led to unimaginable extremes.

They say an image is worth a thousand words. I've once described one image in over 10,000 words. Over 60,000 characters. The post is so long that, I think, Misskey and its various forks have rejected it, as have Pleroma and Akkoma. It took me two full days, morning to evening, to describe that one image, in-world research included.

And I actually had to limit myself. For once, I did not give in-depth descriptions of the images within that image, especially not beyond what's actually visible in these images. That's because I've discovered that if I were to do that, I'd have to describe dozens of images in one particular image (in my image) and potentially over a hundred images in these, even though they're so small that they're technically invisible. It would have taken me months to write all that. And it would have been futile anyway. My character limit is over 16 million, but Mastodon rejects posts over 100,000 characters, and in the few places that do accept posts with millions of characters, next to nobody cares about image descriptions.

I haven't posted a new in-world image in over half a year. I've been working on-and-off on the descriptions for a series of rather simple avatar portraits since last autumn.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta
hub.netzgemeinde.euUniversal Campus: The mother of all mega-regionsOpenSim's famous Universal Campus and a picture of its main building; CW: long (62,514 characters, including 1,747 characters of actual post text and 60,553 characters of image description)
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@Bob Tregilus Of course, this means that the more obscure the content of your image is, the more in-depth you will have to go. At worst, there's nothing in your image of which non-sighted people know what it looks like unless you describe it. Simply mentioning that it's there is not sufficient.

My own original images aren't even photographs, nor are they pieces of art that represent real life. They're renderings from 3-D virtual worlds, very obscure 3-D virtual worlds even. Nobody knows what anything in these world looks like unless they can see it in my images. At the same time, however, chances are that they become so curious about these virtual worlds that they also become curious about everything in the image, not just what matters within the context of the post. That is, sometimes the image itself as a whole is the context. Either way, this means I can't just focus on certain elements in the image in my descriptions. I have to describe everything.

So I've gotten to a point at which even filling the alt-text character limit forced by Mastodon, Misskey and their respective forks (they cut longer alt-texts off at the 1,500-character mark) doesn't cut it. All my original images have two descriptions now. In addition to the one in the alt-text that's very limited, there is another one in the post that's more or less fully detailed, that contains transcripts of all text within the borders of the image, and that also comes with all explanations that I deem necessary. Since I don't have a character limit to worry about (the limit is defined by the database field rather than a hard-coded or configurable number), this description is likely to grow well over a hundred times longer than typical alt-text.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla

Suche Austausch bezüglich Bildbeschreibungen fürs Fediverse mit jemandem mit wirklich Ahnung; CW: lang (fast 8.000 Zeichen), Fediverse-Meta, Fediverse-über-Mastodon-hinaus-Meta, Alt-Text-Meta/Bildbeschreibungen-Meta

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@Michael Hanscom Out of curiosity, and to be on the safe side and improve my own image descriptions further: What makes alt-text bad in your opinion? Only when it's rubbish that doesn't have anything to do with the image?

Or is it bad when it isn't accurate enough? When it isn't detailed enough/when certain details that you think should be described are missing? When it's too detailed? When it describes the wrong details?

Is it bad when elements in the image are described the wrong way? When (for any definition of person) a person's skin colour is mentioned rather their race or vice versa, whichever you think is correct? When a person's gender is mentioned although whoever described the image can't know it with absolute certainty? When a shade of a colour is mentioned by name rather than being described?

Is it bad when it doesn't explain what you don't understand in such a way that you understand the image without having to look anything up yourself? Or is it bad when it does explain the image because explanations do not belong into the alt-text (I'm being serious, they actually don't)?

Is it bad when, while getting everything else right, it doesn't contain verbatim transcripts of any and all text in the image? What if there are transcripts in the post text body instead? Is it bad when text is transcribed which you think should not be transcribed, whichever that may be? Is it bad when text in a foreign language is transcribed verbatim in that language and then translated as literally as possible instead of translating it right away?

Or do you have other criteria that I don't know about and I haven't thought of yet?

When is alt-text so bad that it justifies both mocking and writing a replacement?

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta
hub.netzgemeinde.euImage descriptions in the FediverseI have learned a lot about describing images according to Mastodon's standards, and I want to share my knowledge, but I haven't learned enough
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@Justin Derrick The question, however, is: What is "high-quality"? How is it defined?

Would the bot go by the definition valid for commercial/scientific/technological websites and blogs, i.e. ideally no more than 125 characters, and only a short and concise visual description with no further information?

Or would the bot go by Mastodon's culture and Mastodon's standards, i.e. the longer and more detailed, the better, any and all extra information is welcome in alt-text (because it doesn't fit into the toot), and the limit is 1,500 characters?

That is, if it were for me, the bot would go look both for alt-texts and for image descriptions in the post text body and judge both. Because I do both at the same time for my original images. An extremely detailed long image description in the post itself (character limit for post and alt-texts combined here: over 16 million) that also comes with all necessary explanations and transcripts of all text in the image, plus an alt-text that's as detailed as 1,500 characters (minus notification about the long description in the post) allow, but with no explanations, and I usually have to leave out text transcripts as well because they're too many.

You may say the alt-text is superfluous if it's just a much shorter version of the long description. But as long as the Mastodon HOA demands there be an alt-text to every image, no matter what (especially seeing as I always hide my image posts behind summaries/content warnings, so you can't see right of the bat that there's a long image description in the post), I add alt-texts to my original images.

I'm actually curious about how the bot would judge my descriptions. Maybe it'd flag them "inadequate" because it notices that the bits of text in the image are not transcribed in the alt-text. Maybe it'd be irritated because I have headlines in my long image descriptions, because they're so long that they need two levels of headlines. Maybe it'd flag them "inadequate" because it goes strictly by WCAG, and a) the alt-texts exceed 200 characters, b) long image descriptions do not belong into the text body by any known official accessibility standards, and c) neither my alt-texts nor my long descriptions are limited to what's supposed to be important within the context of the post.

Anyway, in the meantime, you can follow the account @Alt Text Hall of Fame and the hashtag #AltTextHallOfFame.

CC: @Simon Brooke

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #MastodonHOA #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla

Instead of posting (or actually not posting) a series of brand-new images for the Unseen Image Challenge, I'm going to re-use a pair of images I've posted last year; CW: long (almost 4,000 characters), Fediverse meta, non-Mastodon Fediverse meta, alt-text meta, image description meta

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@-0--1- @David G. Smith Still, first of all, if I posted an image without an alt-text (which I'd never do), AltBot would have to assume full admin rights over the Hubzilla channel that I'm currently commenting from because that's the only way for another Fediverse actor to alter the source code of my posts.

Altering the source code of the post is necessary because Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte neither have a dedicated alt-text field, nor are images file attachments there. Rather, images are embedded directly into the post, in-line, just the same way blogs handle images. And alt-text has to be woven into the image-embedding code in the post. Thus, the post itself has to be altered.

So, assuming AltBot actually manages to circumvent the two most advanced permissions systems in the Fediverse, it would have to trace back an image that it perceives as a file attachment to where exactly the embedding code for that particular image is in the post.

It would have to be able to both understand and write the specific flavour of BBcode used by Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte.

It would have to, for example, take this piece of code...
[zrl=https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/photos/jupiter_rowland/image/b1e7bf9c-07d8-45b6-90bb-f43e27199295][zmg=800x533]https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/photo/b1e7bf9c-07d8-45b6-90bb-f43e27199295-2.jpg[/zmg][/zrl]
...and edit it into this.
[zrl=https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/photos/jupiter_rowland/image/b1e7bf9c-07d8-45b6-90bb-f43e27199295][zmg=https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/photo/b1e7bf9c-07d8-45b6-90bb-f43e27199295-2.jpg]Digital shaded rendering of the main building of the Universal Campus, a downloadable island location for 3-D virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator. The camera position is about three metres or ten feet above the ground. The camera is tilted slightly upward and rotated slightly to the left from the building's longitudinal axis. The futuristic building is over 200 metres long, stretching far into the distance, and its front is about 50 metres wide. Its structure is mostly textured to resemble brushed stainless steel, and almost everything in-between is grey tinted glass. The main entrance of the building in the middle of the front has two pairs of glass doors. They are surrounded by a massive complex geometrical structure, very roughly reminiscent of a vintage video game spacecraft with the front facing upward. Four huge cylindrical pillars carry the roof end, the outer two of which extend beyond it. All are tilted away from the landing area in front of the building and at the same time outward to the sides. The sides of the building are slightly tilted themselves. In the distance, a large geodesic dome rises from the building. There is a large circular area in front of the main entrance as well as several wide paths. They have light concrete textures, and they are lined with low walls with almost white concrete textures. Furthermore, various shrubs and trees decorate the scenery.[/zmg][/zrl]

Not to mention that AltBot would require extensive detail niche knowledge about the topic covered by the image to be able to whip up the above alt-text in the first place. (By the way: The alt-text example is genuine. I've actually used it. And it's an extremely whittled-down version of the long image description of the same image in the post itself, a description which has to be the longest in the entire Fediverse.)

Ideally, AltBot would do so without flagging the post as edited.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta