@bodil also #SystemD is evidently a "necessary evil" at worst, because noone accepts #SysVinit boot times measured in minutes!

Interestibgly the same folks hating systemd are loving #LaunchD & #SMF yet launchd is what inspired SystemD...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo

@CursedSilicon @gettie mostly because #systemD (and it's competitiors) took all the right lessions:

• Start less
• Start more in parallel
• Resolve dependencies to avoid waiting times

And basically everyone (#OpenRC, #Upstart, etc. Even #LaunchD [the #init for #macOS that is literally the SystemD but before SystemD and by Apple] and #SMF [#Sun's SystemD for #Solaris] did that to allow for boot times in secinds, not minutes…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo&t=12m17s

@fabiscafe @okapi OFC @chesheer 's criticism is understandable on #FreeBSD given that #SystemD is inherenty focussed and intertwined with #Linux (just as it's Inspiration, #LaunchD, is intertwined with #macOS's Darwin/NeXTstep kernel).

• The problem is after some hefty "init wars" with like #Upstart and others SystemD became the de-facto standard, and the "(statistical) rounding errors" of #BSD users got sidelined, in part because BSDs looked at that mess and went like "Nyet, SysVinit is fine!" and continued their fiddling around...

And sadly there's nothing they (or anyone else) could've done unless they had multiplied suddenly and being able to keepcthe old tech stack maintainable.

• Similarly #Xorg is dying and there are already GPUs that only support #Wayland and #X11 apps get run using #XWayland.

OFC I wish for more diversity in solutions, but #Linux being #streamlined is what makes #portability across distros easier and boosted adoption as well as providing massive gains in solutions like #DXVK, #Proton and #Wine in general.

• And TBH most "#TechIlliterates" aka. "#Normies" frankly don't give a shit what OS they use. All it needs to do is serve them their eMails and allow them to 'consoom themselbes happy' as in watching YouTube, Play games, etc.

@fabiscafe @okapi espechally in the form of an interactive desktop...

• I could see it valid for multiple shell sessions, but #tmux & #screen cover that pretty well.

• If one has to login into different machines then chances are #aithentification is centralized anyway.

Needless to say #modernizations like #SystemD don't happen because people like #Poettering are "hobbyless", but because the preexisting status-quo (#SysVinit) was slow, inflexible and error-prone by strict linearity and non-parallelization.

• With a literal /etc/init file one can literally get a system to hang due to a mistake (i.e. certain call doesn't get invoked correctly), whereas on #SystemD (and competing solutions like #LaunchD on #macOS and #SMF on #Solaris) your desktop / laptop will continue to noot even if it doesn't have a network connection.

Not to mention as Benno Rice explained: 'Shit just gotmore dynamic!': We don't have that one big ass maingrame and serial terminals, instead we have laptops that may he carried around a campus or traveled with all day and that constantly switch between wireless and wired networks and have VPN tunnels open and whatnot...

@quixoticgeek @js @cstross

Upstart both rose and fell in the time that it has taken even to get launchd ports to the BSDs attempted, let alone to Linux-based operating systems.

launchd leans heavily on MacOSisms.

http://jdebp.info/FGA/launchd-on-bsd.html

@freya @BrodieOnLinux makes sense, ofc.

• I like SystemD but for #OS1337 had to stick with the classic /etc/init file for space reasons alone.

Tho in fairness I'm shure #SMF did inspire #Apple to do #LaunchD which in turn was copied with #SystemD, abeit all 3 are very much centric about the Kernel and Userland they target.

• Reminds me of that legendary talk "The Tragedy of SystemD"…

@BestGirlGrace yes, and they'll basically refuse to accept the #InconvenientTruth that #systemd is at worst a "#NecessaryEvil" because what came before it was way worse, competing solutions failed to get adopted and even mainline #Unix like #Solaris (#SMF) and #macOS (#LaunchD clearly is the inspiration for SystemD!) did the same...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo

@nuintari I disagree.

#SystemD is a "necessary evil" because what existed previously was bad for anything that isn't a "build once never change" server that never gets changed much...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo

• Most #unix-esque OSes already used something like it way before @pid_eins even did #Linux: Like #SMF on #Solaris and espechally #LaunchD which is basically what inspired systemd.

The only reason I "cut" systemd from @OS1337 as of now is because I can't make it - or the #GNUtils that preceded it - fit within the few hundred kB on a 1.440 kB FDD I can spare.

Noone wants to go back to #SysVinit when even the fastest systems took longer to boot that most peoole need to make a shitty coffee or dump ass on the toilet.

• Amd dumping SysVinit - just like #Linux dumping #i386 - is somewhat inevitable given the amount of work it took to keep it workable at all...

@landley @pid_eins
Because if #SysVinit was good he'd likely not made systemd nor would any other #Unix-esque OS that isn't a tiny embedded distro that can handle just using an #init file use basically their primitive systemd-predecessor like #launchD (#macOS), & #SMF (#Solaris & #illumos) instead...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo

@jerry not really...

#SystemD is more of a copy of #LaunchD from #macOS than anything...

@ncommander BTW: anyone hating on #systemd but using #SMF [ #Solaris ] and/or #launchd [ #macOS ] is just a bigot!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_Management_Facility